Tibetan mantra same as daimoku?

" it's not heretical for Nichiren devotees to chant Om Mani Padme Hum."

I guess if you go by the dictionary definition chanting such is a heresy...ie "contrary to orthodox doctrines" of most of the Nichiren schools although N Shu may be an exception...??

When I came across this translation "Devotion to the mystic/universal law of the Lotus Sutra" some time ago, I found it very affirming, as it supports my understanding of what is, in a broad stroke, called by Huxley the Perennial Philosopy.

IMO people get too caught up in dogma, words and labels which are merely pointers or signafiers. Concentrate your mind and look into your Original Mind, which in essence can be called Myoho Renge would be my take...

Thanks mroaks good point(er)

Franko the Fool

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by: fgwalmsley @ Sun May 17, 2009 at 14:34:12 PM CDT

Embracing Heresy

Hi Mroaks,

About 4 years ago I had an experience that led me to look up the meaning of Om Mani Pad Me Hum and was tripped out that it seemed to have the same meaning as the daimoku essentially. At the same time I was actively trying to shed the hard layers of thought patterns I had built up through years of SGI practice and general reactionary patterns regarding other practices associated with practicing Nichiren Buddhism for 30 years. So I decided to experiment with chanting Om Mani Pad Me Hum. I tried a few different things. Chanting it by itself. Chanting it combined with Nam Myoho Renge Kyo (Nam myoho renge kyo om mani padme hum), chanting nam myoho renge kyo while chanting om mani padme hum in my head and vice versa, and... drum roll please... I tried doing all of these different things to the gohonzon.

It was exhilirating! Definitely helped me to break through certain conditoned ways of thinking and led to visions of a brave new world of buddhism. I had a nice vision of Daisaku Ikeda and the Dalai Lama dancing together. I still do it periodically. I really like the combined 12 syallable chant.

Thanks for a great post!

Bill

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by: banker91344 @ Sat May 23, 2009 at 10:35:51 AM CDT

Mantra choice

I had an experience similar to Bill's when I started chanting "Om Sri Rama Jaya Rama, Jaya, Jaya Rama" to the Gohonzon. It was good enough for Gandhi, right? I think it means, Victory to the inner self (Rama) victory, victory to the highest self.

I found it quite liberating, but a little scary. I worried that I would be struck by a bolt of lightning for being a heretic. What happened, though, was I became more confident about my own capacity to care, pray and be in the world.

I tried Om Mani Padme Hum on for size, too. I have not tried stringing it together with other mantras or daimoku. Maybe I will try it.

The point I want to make is that I always seem to "come home" to daimoku. In moments of duress, the words that come out of my mouth are "Namu myoho renge kyo." It's my default mantra.

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by: brooke @ Sat May 23, 2009 at 17:07:33 PM CDT

Clarification

Hi, I'd like to clear up a few things as the post that was quoted contains some misinformation.

First, the Lotus Sutra is not "intrinsic" to "all" Buddhist teachings, only those teachings that belong to what we can describe in general as the Lotus Schools. Many other schools, while they may respect the Lotus as an important sutra, base their teachings on other documents.

Secondly, OM MANI PADME HHUM does not have anything to do with the Lotus Sutra and the mantra is not a reference to the Lotus Sutra. In Tibet, the mantra is associated with Avalokiteshvara, the Bodhisattva from the 25th chapter of the Lotus, but this association is far different from that of Tendai and the Nichiren schools.

OM, while it is given a multitude of meanings, is actually an un-expressable bija or seed syllable. The original spelling is AUM. No one knows for sure what HUM means. MANI means jewel and PADME means lotus, specifically white lotus, which is only a coincidental connection to the Lotus Sutra.

Interestingly, this mantra and the daimoku of the Lotus Sutra have the same syllables and seem to be virtually interchangeable. This leads me to suspect that since OM MANI PADME HUM came first, that it is possible that the daimoku was set up in a deliberate attempt to "copy" the former mantra. Just a possibility, nothing concrete to go on.

Even though the meaning of OM MANI PAMDE HUM is ultimately unknowable, except perhaps intuitively through the process of meditation, many have tried to ascribe meanings to it. The Dalai Lama offers an excellent interpetation of the mantra, which is available many places online. And one of the best books on the mantra, indeed one of the best books on Buddhism, is "Foundations of Tibetan Buddhism" by Lama Govinda.    

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by: dmr @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 at 00:25:31 AM CDT

Mantra connections?

Hi, DMR  -

It would be interesting to see whether any scholarship has been done regarding historical references to the Om Mani Padme Hum mantra (in that specific form) in either China or Japan during the period from ~450 CE (Kumarajiva's day) through 1300 CE (post Nichiren/Honen/Dogen/Shinran).  That might give some clues about whether there were any possible connections; whether Chih-ih or any of his Tendai followers and their spiritual descendants had heard of that specific mantra in that form.

Namaste, Engyo

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by: Engyo @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 at 06:49:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mantra connections - more

As you are probably aware, Myoho-renge-kyo is a transliteration of one of the Chinese titles of the Lotus, Miao-fa lien-hua. There are several other Chinese variations of the title, but that's the one Chih-i went with--why, I haven't a clue. To me, it doesn't seem to have the same syllable structure, but maybe when it's chanted in Chinese, it does. OMPH in Chinese is AN MANI BAMI HONG.

The mantra OMPH is said to have first appeared in the Karandavyuha Sutra, which is thought to have been complied in the 4th or 5th century, perhaps as late as the 7th. If that is the case, then it is doubtful that Chih-i was very familar with it, if at all.

However, I think it is safe to assume that OMPH actually has much earlier origins, in which case Chih-i then would have known it. That raises the question of whether or not Chih-i or the Chinese T'ien-t'ai chanted the title of the Lotus Sutra. Some people are inclined to believe that they did. However, despite remarks Nichiren made which supports that notion and the fact that T'ien-t'ai had devotional practices bases on the LS, I think it is more wishful thinking than anything else.

In Japan, OMPH was popular in the Shingon school around the time of Myoe (1173-1232), who like Nichiren, was a fierce critic of the Pure Land schools. Although I have never seen any references to it (that I can recall right now), I am sure that OMPH was used to some degree in Japanese Tendai practices.

That's about as much as I know about the mantra connections.  

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by: dmr @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 at 10:13:40 AM CDT