Bad beliefs cause earthquakes? Egad.

One

These people? You found one, an obvious wacko on an obscure blog. Someone whom SGI would disavow in a second if they knew about her. You know, every time you link to one of these sites it moves up in Google's rankings.

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by: Cultmember @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 01:27:57 AM CST

Wacko

Someone whom SGI would disavow in a second

She plays the panpipes and is avowedly spiritual. Long live Atlantis. But regardless of how bizarre someone practices, from my personal experiences, SGI-USA wont disavow a person unless they criticize the organization openly or, if at one time a leader, refuse to sign the mandatory vow form that all people in leadership positions must sign or be "disqualified". After that comes the shunning. (I've heard from my friends in Oregon that around 50% of the existing leadership in that state refused. These are people with 20-40 years of practice and life experience, including one of my best friends and my personal "go-to" in times of needing encouragement or clarification.)  In my SGI chapter we have a chapter leader who occasionally, because of their Baptist upbringing, ends a diatribe with "Amen" and "Hallelujah".  It's actually very cute and they themselves acknowledge the fact that some upbringing is hard to relinquish. There is another local district leader who speaks of their dreams as karmic revelations, very spiritual, and the district caters to individuals who are attracted to this type of spirituality bordering on the mystic. But I have heard current leaders in all strata of positions either make up or regurgitate all kinds of nonsensical or fundamentalistic statements. I've found the best way to get people's attention in the SGI-USA  or to get them to do anything is to start a sentence with "President Ikeda says..." whether he did or did not. It matters not if you sign on the dotted line and support the status quo. That is labeled faith.

I now drive about 35 miles to another city because I have found a place to practice, as I pretentiously quote Nabokov (name dropping too) but it's a great line, "...Cincinnatus made his way in that direction where, judging from the voices, stood beings akin to him." Maybe I'm the wacko. But I've found a place where the agenda is about the people in the room and not exclusive to an axiom that has nothing to do with Buddhism.

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by: joeisuzu @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 11:34:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Ranting

Cultmember, please don't try to speak calmly to mroaks when he's off on a rant. ;-)

It can be very hard for some people to wrap their minds around the idea that Nichiren can be completely right about some things, but completely wrong about other things. It has to be one way or the other -- all right or all wrong.

I will totally admit that I had this mindset early in my practice. I took Rissho Ankoku quite literally, thinking we had to convert everyone to chanting if we were ever to have peace in the world. What can I say? I was younger then, and hadn't really thought through the implications.

I was an unwitting Nichiren Fundamentalist. It's only when I started hanging out with bad influences (kidding) who were questioning everything -- the SGI organization, the way the teachings were presented, the Gohonzon, everything -- that I started to become more flexible and thoughtful in my Buddhist practice.

So I don't think you need to go off on Nichiren fundies and call them stupid. But I do think there is value in pointing out the attitude (beliefs cause earthquakes) and offering a critique or opposing view. None of us can claim to speak for Nichiren, but we can point out that there are valid, non-fundamentalist ways to approach his teachings.

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by: brooke @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 17:13:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Leaders

Who is your friend in Oregon? I live there (here) and I haven't heard anything about it. But I don't go to meetings very often.

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by: Cultmember @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 17:15:35 PM CST

Cause and Effect

Belief in cause and effect is a fundamental requirement of Buddhism, so I find it very strange indeed that people who call themselves Buddhist repeatedly deny it. When asked about the tragedy in New Orleans, the Dali Lama said it was their karma, eg; cause and effect. So the Dali Lama believes in cause and effect, but you guys don't? Is this a Buddhist blog or what?
The natural occurrences of plate techtonics just happen to occur at this time, in this place. That is how people receive their retribution. They are all there together when it happens. Some were able to avoid dying, which is their karma. Some died, which is their karma. Most will suffer tremendously even though they didn't die, and that is their karma.
You don't have to understand what they did to deserve the retribution, because it is as-it-is.

Markp

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by: markp @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 20:08:23 PM CST

re;

BTW, to speculate on the cause is quite ridiculous, because for all these people to be located at the same time and place indicates causes from a previous lifetime, not anything they may or may not have done this lifetime, although the conditions would appear to be consistent.  

Markp

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by: markp @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 20:38:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Karma

Hey, no one's disputing that people have karma.

What I'm disputing is the assertion that "erroneous beliefs cause earthquakes."

I think a lot of folks have a very messed up notion of what karma actually means.

Earlier, Brooke linked to an interesting discussion of karma related to the Haiti quake, here:

A few (deeply) wrong views about karma:

1. Karma is An Invisible Boomerang - and what goes around comes around (which is how I interpret Pat Robertson's Pact with the Devil comments). It is not nearly as simple or one-to-one as this, because interdependence causes us to live in a huge web of causality.

2. Karma is a Cosmic Bank Account Somewhere - this is a subtle and deeply materialistic view, and it's not surprising that the dominant view of karma in our society attempts to commodify it spiritually, rather than use it as a way to look deeply at our own acquired habits.

3. Karma is a Way to Play The Blame Game - The idea that when bad things happen, karma allows us to place blame on the victim. "You were robbed at gunpoint solely because of your negative actions in the past.

Check it out.

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by: mroaks @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 21:05:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; karma

1. Actually, what goes around does come back around. This is called cause and effect. Whether or not it can come back around this lifetime is whether the conditions are present for it to do so. If not, it comes back when the conditions are present.

2. Whether you call it a bank or a buffer, there is the consistency that requires the entity that committed the offense to pay the retribution. Call it what you will, but the reason people can't see through the darkness of life between death and rebirth is because if you knew what happened in a previous life you could avoid the retribution.

3. To play the blame game only makes bad karma for yourself. You can't blame the dog because he bit you, and likewise, you can't blame the mugger who mugs you. In each of these instances the environments of both entities overlap and an effect occurs. If there is no inherent cause in your life you won't get mugged because you wouldn't be in that place at that time. So if you get mugged, the only blame is on yourself, not the mugger who is only acting in accordance with his own conditioning. Now, does it make sense for someone to blame himself? Only in that maybe they will make adjustments in their own life to not make bad causes. It doesn't do any good to dwell on these things. Just move on.

Markp

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by: markp @ Tue Jan 19, 2010 at 21:27:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Victim blaming

Markp, I find this statement to be odious and facile:

So if you get mugged, the only blame is on yourself, not the mugger who is only acting in accordance with his own conditioning.

Riight. And women are to blame when men rape them. Um, maybe this is what you think Buddhism teaches, but it's so frighteningly wrongheaded I don't even know where to begin. Blech.

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by: brooke @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 13:54:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]

who's to blame?

"Riight. And women are to blame when men rape them."

What would you have happen to a man that rapes a women? What would be an equal and opposite reaction that would occur in the next lifetime?

Blame is a Christian concept that doesn't exist within Buddhism. I don't blame anyone for what happens to me, and I take full responsibility for my own life. I do not view myself as a victim, nor do I blame myself, and no one else should also. I don't like what happens in the world, but the reality is as-it-is whether or not anyone understands it.


Markp

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by: markp @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 18:49:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh no!

I'm worried that Markp's erroneous views will trigger an earthquake! Now we know why Yellowstone is suddenly seismically active.

The US legal system does not subscribe to these faux-Buddhist beliefs, and identifies mugging as a crime for which the perpetrator is responsible and punishable. Thank god the courts are not "enlightened" enough to blame the victim.

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by: mroaks @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 15:06:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

some day

Some day you may understand, but somehow I don't see that coming too soon. Go ask the Dali Lama if you don't believe what I say.


Markp

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by: markp @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 18:51:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

How does it work

1. Actually, what goes around does come back around. This is called cause and effect. Whether or not it can come back around this lifetime is whether the conditions are present for it to do so. If not, it comes back when the conditions are present.

How does that work, exactly? What are the mechanics of it?

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by: Cultmember @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 22:18:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; how

Three Truths, Three Conditions, Ten Factors, and Mutual Possession of the Ten Worlds. Add in Dependant Co-Arising, mix, not shake, and serve in a chilled glass.

Want to know how it works? Practice, Study and Observe.  

Markp

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by: markp @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 22:40:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

First Comment in wrong place

IOW, you can't explain how it works, because it's just a lot of mumbo-jumbo.

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by: Cultmember @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 12:05:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; mumbo jumbo

I have done what I can in my "understanding ichinen sanzen" series. There is a lot that has to be done with that series as it is too short and too choppy for me, but it's more than anyone else has ever done since I have been living. I have tried to explain what is basically unfathomable in words that the common person can understand. Have you read the series?

Markp

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by: markp @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 19:09:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"understanding ichinen sanzen"

I did read a few of those and enjoyed them at the time butI should go back and read the whole series together.

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by: clown hidden @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 23:37:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Ichinen Sanzen

Yes I have read it and to me it is rather incoherent. In any  case it does not explain how karmic retribution works. I mean I can explain how the physical world works with equations like F=ma and e=mc squared. But how does karmic retribution wait around for the right conditions, possibly spanning lifetimes? Is there a giant computer in the sky with a database of all the causes I've made?

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by: Cultmember @ Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 17:30:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Re: Cause and Effect

The Dalai Lama does not believe in cause and effect as you do. He does not have a simplistic, black and white understanding of cause and effect. What he was saying about Katrina was that it was their karma to go through a tragic experience, not that specifically it was their karma to die or suffer through a hurricane. There is a big difference and it has nothing to do with retribution.

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by: dmr @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 13:04:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re;

I don't see any difference in your distinctions. What about those that died in Katrina? What is different about them in what the Dali Lama said? How more tragic is death?

Like I've said earlier, if you guys don't believe me, just go ask the Dali Lama. I guarantee he will go easy on your sensibilities, because that is the way he is.  

Markp

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by: markp @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 18:56:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Can we get over the blame game?

Look, I haven't said anything about what caused the earthquake in Haiti. To do so would be extremely stupid, IMO, and we have witnessed this stupidity over and over again every time there is a tragedy. Even if someone could understand what the base cause was it could never be proven. However, there had to be a cause. In Buddhism there is always a cause or there cannot be an effect. If you don't believe this, even though you may practice Buddhism, you are not Buddhist, yet.

I feel like I am trying to explain to Christians the basic tenets of Buddhism here, and I shouldn't have to.

Nowhere in the sutras will you find the Buddha blaming anyone for what happens to them, yet he outlines what happens to people when they commit offenses against ethical behavior and Buddhism. I just searched tientai.net for the word blame and came up with no documents.

Blame is a Christian concept so get over it. There is no blame to pass around. Don't blame your kids, don't blame your wife or husband, don't blame anyone for anything. Get past the blame game and you will find your own life will improve substantially! You know why? To blame someone for what happens to you is to deny the reality as-it-is that it, whatever "it" is, happened to you.

People make mistakes and it may cause you suffering, but most people don't want to cause others suffering. There are vindictive people out there, but your kids or husband/wife, or friends don't want to cause you suffering. A mistake is a mistake, yet you suffered. The blame is not on your kids, friends, or husband. Likewise, you cannot blame the dog if he bites you, nor should you blame yourself! Blaming yourself just leads to lack of self confidence.

Look upon humanity as a dog that has been conditioned, because that is what is going on. People are conditioned to act the way they do. If they are rapists or murderers it is because they have been conditioned to be that way. Predators will be predators, no matter what species, and their victims are not random even though it may appear to be so. This is the meaning of Dependant Co-Arising, that all life arises together at certain times so that the retribution can be realized.

And please understand that the word retribution can be positive as well as negative. There is actually a non-duality at play here, but I don't want to go into that right now. This is already too long.

Markp

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by: markp @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 20:42:14 PM CST

Blame

I agree with you about blame. And labeling someone's situation as karmic retribution, negative or positive, is a great way to establish a social hierarchy like India's caste system. http://india_resource.tripod.c...

Here is just a suggestion and without blaming you for the result, you might want to put a little KY jelly on some of your statements before you post them. Such as:

In Buddhism there is always a cause or there cannot be an effect. If you don't believe this, even though you may practice Buddhism, you are not Buddhist, yet.

This is just an example of where someone might possibly take umbrage for the label you have imposed. I could also use your argument and say you are blameless for how people perceive you. Your interpretation of being misinterpreted, in turn, might frustrate you. Unless you don't care whether you are understood or not, which I do not believe to be true, otherwise, why are you here trying to dialogue? But, according to the paradigm you have set up in your examples, your frustration is your issue, not the people you tried to communicate with. No blame. Not much communication either.

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by: joeisuzu @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 11:17:21 AM CST

[ Parent ]

re; blame

Yeah, I probably should have been a little softer, but the truth is that most people that practice Nichiren Buddhism really don't understand Buddhism, and this is true of a lot of other sects also. Thats okay as long as people are willing to learn, and even if they are not, at least they are practicing; however, I have been the sole voice pushing the understanding of ichinen sanzen for the last five years and sometimes I have had to be adamant to get others to even think about it. On E-Sangha I finally broke through to a few people and have watched them grow in the seriousness of their practice and understanding. If I hadn't pushed then no one would have ever listened.

As for what anyone thinks of me, I don't care. People give more credence to celebrities than anything I have to say. I would like people to understand, but I've found over the years that all I can do is put it out there. As T'ien-t'ai stated; "cause and effect is either believed or it is not." He didn't leave much wiggle room, and I am not frustrated even though it may seem so in print. My life is in harmony with my environment and I have achieved a level of happiness that is profound in todays world.

Markp

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by: markp @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 18:51:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; blame again

I would like to correct something I said earlier.

I said that blame was a Christian concept. This is wrong. Blame predates Christianity and should be considered as a human concept, as it does not exist in the rest of the animal kingdom for the most part, but probably has existed in humans for as long as we have been able to conceptualize our environment.  

Markp

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by: markp @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 21:13:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Ichinen Sanzen

at least they are practicing

And encouraging them to continue is the most you can do for them. Because from what I read about Ichinen Sanzen is, some of which you wrote yourself, is that it's understanding comes from it's application and that runs much deeper than it's intellectual understanding. I agree that discussing, becoming aware of the processes, it is a good way to perhaps apply it to better use. But that's not much use to someone who cannot grasp it's concepts except in it's resonance in their individual lives. Which is pretty much everybody. I think Nichiren tried explaining this about a gazillion times usually ending with that the validity of ichinen sanzen does not depend upon the capacity of the individual to understand that it what is going on. But their behavior changes regardless because they realize the ramifications of causality and behavior in this life time.  

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by: joeisuzu @ Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 10:34:14 AM CST

[ Parent ]

re; ichinen sanzen

I think Nichiren tried explaining this about a gazillion times usually ending with that the validity of ichinen sanzen does not depend upon the capacity of the individual to understand that it what is going on. But their behavior changes regardless because they realize the ramifications of causality and behavior in this life time.

Yes, that is what practice does and why it is called actual ichinen sanzen. That is the trigger to the theory, and in time it leads to awakening. Remember that old line that the one precept leads to all other precepts? I wonder why everyone seems to want to wait for that to happen, because nothing I have said here is any different than awakening to the precepts, albeit I probably could have said it better. Not blaming anyone is good for you, and it has a secondary effect of breaking the cycle of revenge.

Markp

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by: markp @ Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 17:52:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

earthquakes

I think people are nuts if they think bad things happen to someone because of what religion they are. I don't even really think bad things happen to people who deserve to have them happen to them. I think bad things happen and it's bad for you if you happen to be there. Does that sound like I don't I believe in karma? I do believe in karma, just not the way many other people do. I think whatever causes you make will have effects on you and others, but I don't believe there is any balancing act by the universe running around and making sure that everyone's debits and credits are in order and everyone is getting repaid. In other word's life ain't fair.

Nichiren like most people of his time saw omens and a divine hand behind many things. Most people today don't really believe those things literally. Unjust killing and warfare aren't believed to be the cause behind natural disasters. But they are disasters of their own. I don't know how much playing the pan pipes helps (though it wouldn't hurt and might be fun any way) the whole back to the land thing in the 70's went nowhere. Probably have to put up with the domination of the military industrial complex. I don't forsee any revolutionary change.

The old saw, suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what there is to enjoy.

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by: clown hidden @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 22:51:21 PM CST

Doesn't know

IOW, you can't explain how it works, because it's just a lot of mumbo-jumbo.

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by: Cultmember @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 12:03:11 PM CST

I can't explain

I certainly can't explain it. And what explanations there are are not convincing to me.

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by: clown hidden @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 17:49:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Humility

This thread offers some thought-provoking points. I feel that a large dose of humility is necessary when discussing karma.

"How karma works" has never been fully explained to my satisfaction. When people speak of "cause and effect" the explanations they offer are usually very simplistic. The sutras and commentaries are filled with these.

For example, in the gosho, Nichiren relates the story of a woman who stomped on the Lotus Sutra. After death, she went to hell but her feet went to heaven because they had formed a relationship with the sutra, albeit a negative relationship, but that was apparently beneficial for her feet.

Now, this is not a story to take literally. It is a simple fable to illustrate the idea that a relationship with the Lotus Sutra, whether one accepts or rejects it, is a good thing.

How much of this is theology, and how much is salesmanship?

Karma is unfathomable. Unfathomable, as Nichiren himself confessed. Anyone who claims to understand the ins and outs of karma -- the whys, whats and hows -- is most likely deeply deluded.

We don't know why we have the karma we have. Nichiren teaches that regardless of our karma, we can function as bodhisattvas and reveal our Buddha nature. That is the key point, I feel. Karma is a reality, but it need not be fully understood or somehow repaired before we can awaken.

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by: auntie @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 18:30:15 PM CST

re; humility

Karma is unfathomable. Unfathomable, as Nichiren himself confessed. Anyone who claims to understand the ins and outs of karma -- the whys, whats and hows -- is most likely deeply deluded.

Nichiren stated that "the practice of Kanjin is the practice of the unfathomable that relates directly to the Buddha's awakening." Karma is unfathomable in that there is no way to know for sure what cause leads to what effect, and how and when it will manifest. Understanding karma can only be understood through an intuitive process and observation, so that although we can say that people have bad or good karma, we cannot know why. We can, however, observe the reality as it manifests.

I have passed no judgements on the people of Haiti.

Markp

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by: markp @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 19:03:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not Newtonian physics

earlier in this thread someone commented:

What would you have happen to a man that rapes a women? What would be an equal and opposite reaction that would occur in the next lifetime?

There's a lot wrong with this comment in a discussion of Buddhism and karma.

1. "Equal and opposite reaction": No, no, no, emphatically no. Get this out of your mind and vocabulary when discussing karma. Buddhist cause and effect is not the same as Newtonian cause and effect. Not even remotely similar. Equating the two results in a horrifyingly simplistic, materialistic misunderstanding of karma. Huge mistake. Stop it.

2. "What would you have happen to a man that rapes a women?": I would have him arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned. And I would have people who assert or imply that rape victims somehow deserve or are responsible for being raped get a fucking clue. Start here.

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by: deardenver @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 at 23:09:54 PM CST

Newton was not a Buddhist

Buddhist cause and effect is not the same as Newtonian cause and effect.

Right on. I have been trying to convince Mark and others of this without much success. It's not the same as quantum physics, either.

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by: Cultmember @ Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 17:36:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; newton

I understand this. It's just easier to write than a dissertation on cause and effect and how it works in conjunction with Dependant Origination.  

Markp

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by: markp @ Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 17:56:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Karma

Karma is unfathomable, in the sense that it manifests in so many myriad ways that it's simply overwhelming. Karma is not not-understandable however. The problem is that many of you have not been exposed to any real teachings that deal with karma in detail. To understand karma you must understand dependent origination and a number of other concepts, none of which stand on their own, but are interwoven with all the others.

Unfortunately, karma is too often dumbed down to cause and effect. While karma includes cause and effect, it is a misnomer to say that it is equal to cause and effect. Since we cannot know what effect a particular cause may make, except in the most general way, there is not much sense in trying to figure that part of it out. And since everyone has both good and bad karma, there is no need to explain that.

I recommend reading "The Fundamentals of Mainstream Buddhism" by Eric Cheetham. It deals with many of the central concepts that I have seen many Nichiren believers express confusion about. While it focuses on such topics as samsara, rebirth and karma from the context of early Buddhism, it is always good to go back to the beginning and learn the basics. At the same time, Mahayana did not stray too far from the understandings presented in this book.

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by: dmr @ Fri Jan 22, 2010 at 21:02:11 PM CST

Re Karma

it manifests in so many myriad ways

One of the problems of thinking in terms of causality is in the way people usually think in Western terms of infinite regression to point of origin. But if one's life is infinite so is the karma it manifests and that involves an infinite number of variables so would be seemingly futile or ridiculous to point at something in someone's life and attribute a cause to it.

The problem is that many of you have not been exposed to any real teachings that deal with karma in detail.

Hmm?
I like Joanna Macy myself:
Mutual Causality in Buddhism and General Systems Theory

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by: joeisuzu @ Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 03:18:48 AM CST

[ Parent ]

re; karma

I say don't worry about it. Accept what happens to you and move on without placing blame on anyone else. This is the way of the purity of mind, and when you purify your mind the environment follows.

The Sutra on the Observation of the Bodhisattva Universal Virtue says:
"With the mind empty of self, sin and blessedness are without an owner."

I prefer T'ien-t'ai because those that write today about causality live lives like everyone else. They have not displayed the characteristics of a purified mind anymore than the local joe down the street. There works are for profit and their motive is fame or academic acclaim.


Markp

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by: markp @ Sat Jan 23, 2010 at 18:45:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; karma

I prefer T'ien-t'ai because those that write today about causality live lives like everyone else. They have not displayed the characteristics of a purified mind anymore than the local joe down the street. There works are for profit and their motive is fame or academic acclaim.

See, now this is what I was talking about with the KY.

You've made enormous individual effort, what some may considered an admirable quality of one individual for the sake of others, in an effort to dialogue about the importance of ichinen sanzen. Heck man, I for one appreciate your efforts. Yet you've blanketed a different label on everyone else's effort and made yourself seemly the cleric for what constitutes a purified mind for them and everyone else. There's a word for that too, it also begins with an "a", but it's not "admirable".  

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by: joeisuzu @ Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 11:21:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

re; karma

Joe, if it doesn't show in their life then there is no real understanding. Nichiren, T'ien-t'ai, and Dengyo all mention this. It is called living the Lotus Sutra.

Now for me to make a blanket statement without ever meeting these people can be construed to make it look like I don't know what I'm talking about, except that to date I have seen no one that is walking the walk. They all talk, but no one walks.

I appear to be alone in this, and that's a pretty sad state of affairs for the priesthood, that a lowly individual such as myself can understand what has eluded them all their lives. So much so that they don't even seek it anymore. That's another blanket statement that I hope is not true.

I am only trying to teach what I have awakened to. If anyone has a problem with that, that's okay with me.

Markp

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by: markp @ Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 17:26:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; karma

Now for me to make a blanket statement without ever meeting these people can be construed to make it look like I don't know what I'm talking about, except that to date I have seen no one that is walking the walk. They all talk, but no one walks.

Mark Rogow says the same thing. Which one of you two is the prophet?  

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by: joeisuzu @ Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 19:29:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; Mark R.

Mark is a valued member of the Nichiren community because he says what he means and is sincere. I am not a prophet, nor is Mark, and he would agree. We both speak plainly without being politically correct, and we both see benefit in our practice every day. I would add that at one time Mark did react negatively toward me, as many do at first. :)

Markp

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by: markp @ Sun Jan 24, 2010 at 20:11:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Nichiren's Karma

Wow, this thread took off.

Sometimes I wonder if Nichiren was a narcissist or paranoid schizophrenic. The people who claim to flawlessly comprehend and uphold the teachings of Nichiren all seem to have similar qualities in common.

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by: mroaks @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 00:14:57 AM CST

Nichiren's Karma 2

That is a perfectly valid point. I don't think it is too mystical sounding to say that certain philosophies, mindsets, groups and what have you, often tend to attract people with "mirrored" personalities.

The Nichiren tradition does seem to have more than its fair share of self-righteous prophets, restorers-of-the-true-faith, and well, wackos. But then, this is a tradition that is polarized into opposing camps like no other, so perhaps that is to be expected.

There are a number of intelligent, sane and reasonable folks around and it is too bad their voices are rarely heard over the din of the tiny minority of self-appointed saviors and proclaimers of solitary wisdomhood whom, I suspect, are only trying to get attention.  

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by: dmr @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 02:00:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

My last word

All over the world people bring suffering upon themselves because they have been conditioned to do so. So much so that it is apparent that the capacity for people to bring suffering on themselves is limitless and beyond any other species ability to do the same. Yet, they do so because they think it is going to make them happy. From those that revel in their own anger, calling it their passion, to those that continually blame their own misfortune on others. Everything they do, they do in the pursuit of happiness.

They act in an animalistic fashion in the name of making money. They act in an animalistic fashion in the name of religion, and they hunger for anything they don't possess. They blame others for their unhappiness and set about their schemes of revenge, and all in the name of happiness, because revenge feels good, doesn't it? Anger feels good too, doesn't it? They feel good because they are all attachments.

These are the conditions that are foist upon us since birth, yet deep down everyone knows what is right and wrong and you would think things would change with every new generation. The youth, knowing right and wrong, rise up in each generation only to be put down by their elders, thus enforcing the conditioning.

It is this conditioning that has to change or the world as we know it will continue to decay, and along with the decay comes more tragedy as the environment mimics the minds of the people. People want to be happy, but they don't realize that all they have to do is to open their eyes and observe their own mind. It is only then that you will find that the Buddha Land is beneath your own feet, not on some far shore.

Those people that have a difference of opinion with me will probably speak their minds as well, and that is okay. I look forward to reading their posts.

Markp

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by: markp @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 12:03:00 PM CST

Blind spot

Markp, I don't want to belabor this conversation, which seems to have come to a temporary conclusion. But I think you have a blind spot or double standard in your thesis that, for me, totally invalidates it.

You're very concerned that people are "conditioned" to experience suffering. First off, suffering is one of the four noble truths -- a fact of life in samsara. All of Buddhism is focused on awakening from samsara, is it not? That's the point of practice, whether you practice in a Tibetan tradition, Zen, Nichiren, etc. So I don't see how understanding ichinen sanzen as you have explained it is more "key" to awakening than any other approach.

Second, your blind spot (IMHO) is that you're kinda obsessed with those who in your view have "bad karma." Getting back to your assertions about mugging, you seem to think that a person who is mugged has "bad karma." But a mugger is merely conditioned to hit people over the head with their bad karma.

You seem to miss the point that the mugger has worse karma (if karma can be comparative) because the mugger is inflicting suffering, making what I consider a very bad "cause." But in your explication, the mugger is somehow not responsible for his or her behavior -- rather it is the mug-ee who is to blame.

Sorry, but that just makes me think you don't understand something really, really fundamental about Buddhism (and about life) and I dismiss everything you say as being, well, uninformed.

This probably sounds harsh, but that's my honest take on your ichinen sanzen analysis.

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by: brooke @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 12:29:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

that was supposed to be my last word

I am well aware that life is suffering. This is a non-duality which can be overcome by understanding the quote "suffering without suffering, that is the truth." That comes from the sutras.

Second, I don't miss the point that the mugger has worse karma than the person being mugged. Of course he has worse karma, but that does not alter the fact that you got mugged.

Unfortunately, you dismiss without understanding. It is not possible for me to point out every condition so that you can link them together in some sequence you understand. What is possible is for you to observe what is happening around you every day and make the links yourself.

Markp

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by: markp @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 12:50:43 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Last Word

Unfortunately, you dismiss without understanding.

The Ky response doesn't sugar coat but without dismissing the dismissal.

It's actually quite amazing because I started a process that was advocated by T'ien-t'ai, Dengyo, and Nichiren, without even knowing what that process was. It wasn't until about two to three years later that I learned I was practicing Kanjin. It was just something that came naturally to my inquisitive mind.

As it turns out, the practice of chanting the Daimoku to the Gohonzon is perfectly suited to the practice of Kanjin, and Nichiren even named the most major of his writings "Kanjin no Honzon Sho" (Thesis on the Fundamental Object of Veneration for Contemplating the Mind). Chanting is the meditation, as long as you are actually trying to understand something, not chanting for some kind of benefit, and focusing on the Gohonzon allows your mind to get lost in the questioning; every small awakening I've had comes while chanting. It's like a lightbulb goes off in your head and you finally understand a piece of the pie, and it's a big pie with lots of pieces, most still not understood or able to convey with words.

Every desire leads somewhere and using Kanjin leads to the profound. All three of those dudes professed that the Lotus Sutra's intention is valid and does not depend upon an individuals capacity. That and "in this lifetime" is it's profundity. And Nichiren also cautioned to get it right, but used KY on individuals "conditions". (He didn't use much, or any, on the government because of their accountability for the nation.)  

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by: joeisuzu @ Tue Jan 26, 2010 at 10:54:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

re; last word

All three of those dudes professed that the Lotus Sutra's intention is valid and does not depend upon an individuals capacity.

All three actually did say that the capacity to understand must exist.

T'ien-t'ai laid out five stages, one of which was the capacity to understand the teachings. Dengyo chose those with the capacity to understand as Protectors of the Nation, and Nichiren specifically stated that if the person has the capacity he should practice Kanjin.

What I try to do is to explain what I can to get people to the stage where they display the capacity, because at one point it is intelligence, but not some kind of super intelligence like Einstein. Then it becomes intuition and a persons ability to connect the dots. The capacity to understand is not beyond the capability of a reasonably intelligent person. It just takes a good basis and observation.

Markp

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by: markp @ Tue Jan 26, 2010 at 23:11:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Markp's ichinen sanzen

Looking for Markp's essay series on Ichinen Sanzen? Here are the links to it on this site.

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Part Four

Part Five

Epilogue

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by: brooke @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 12:12:31 PM CST

THE PROBLEM WITH CAUSALITY

There hardly ever is one cause for something that happens. In fact after awhile it seems that everything is causually related.
I wouldn't be writing this if I didn't find the subject interesting.
I wouldn't be writing this if my parents never met.
I wouldn't be writing this if the internet was never invented.
I wouldn't be writing this if Christopher Columbus didn't "discover" the New World.
After a while it seems that without all of human history I wouldn't be writing this.

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by: clown hidden @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 18:36:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; causality

Those are called conditions.

Markp

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by: markp @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 at 21:43:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

are they conditions and not causes?

Creating the internet and sailing to North America seem to me to be willful acts.
----------------------------------------
Truth, in order for it to be very Truth at all, must be the Truth of all conditions, and not itself a special condition apart from other conditions.

That is, no matter what arises, you cannot know what a single thing is. The World is a Mystery; your own being is a Mystery.

Whereas the ordinary person continually abandons this Divine Mystery, in order to contract into knowledge and sensation, the Awakened One has perfectly and radically fallen into the condition of Divine Ignorance itself, and thus is perfectly aligned to the utterly spontaneous and unknowable play of the Divine. No-dilemma in mind, no-seeking in heart, for all forms of seeking are only forms of contraction and knowledge, and yet you still cannot know what one thing is.
- Ken Wilber

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by: clown hidden @ Tue Jan 26, 2010 at 13:18:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re;

"Creating the internet and sailing to North America seem to me to be willful acts. "

They were causes which produced an effect and lead to future conditions. People tend to not fully understand conditions because they are simultaneous with the cause and effect. Conditions at birth are much easier to see because no one can see the causality, other than the mating of the parents.

One way to look at conditions is if you ever said "I'll never do that again", you were just conditioned. Then there are the underlying conditions of the environment. The internet could be classed this way. Conditions get very complicated.

Markp

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by: markp @ Tue Jan 26, 2010 at 20:28:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Conditions

Sorry, but this seems very mixed up. In Buddhist dharma, an effect can only arise dependent upon a condition. How can they be simultaneous? The cause may be primary and the conditions secondary, but the conditions have to arise prior to the effect in order for the effect to be dependent upon them.

I have never heard of the simultaneity of cause and effect and conditions. The notion of the simultaneity of cause and effect is taught nowhere except in certain groups within the modern Nichiren tradition, and it is a perversion of "inter-dependency" and is not taught in Chih-I's doctrine of ichinen sanzen. Which is not to say that there can never be simultaneity of cause and effect, but strictly speaking, it is not part of the Dharma.

I think you are also mixing up "conditions" as understood in our physical world, and adding some some modern psychology about conditioned behavior.

 

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by: dmr @ Wed Jan 27, 2010 at 01:35:57 AM CST

[ Parent ]

re; conditions

Maybe not simultaneous, but pretty close sometimes. They are different at times depending on the circumstances. Generally you are correct that before an effect can manifest the conditions must be present, but I disagree that that the simultaneity of cause and effect is purely Nichiren, although you might be right. In any event, it is actually being proved out by Quantum Physics.

"I think you are also mixing up "conditions" as understood in our physical world, and adding some  modern psychology about conditioned behavior."

I may be mixing these two together at times, because they are linked. The conditions of the physical world do impact the conditioned response of people in that environment. The people of Haiti are sleeping outside right now because they don't want to be trapped inside a building if there is an aftershock. That is a conditioned response due to a physical condition.

Markp

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by: markp @ Wed Jan 27, 2010 at 18:12:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re; conditions

In any event, it is actually being proved out by Quantum Physics.

WRONG!
There are certain wave/particle conundrums dealing with simultaneity and conditions that have as yet been satisfactorily explained except in theory and hypothesis which is not proof of anything in Buddhism or any other metaphysical belief system.  

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by: joeisuzu @ Wed Jan 27, 2010 at 22:29:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

predictable

Damn you guys are predictable. I said it is being proved out, not already proven. And who cares anyway? Understand why you get angry and you'll understand more about Buddhism than any science can teach you about life.


Markp

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by: markp @ Thu Jan 28, 2010 at 20:52:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Nuh Uh, Am Not

Here is predictable:
Your communication skills are lacking. Actually, they suck. That nothing is being "proved out" is not what your sentence implied. You said it was "actually being proved out". It is is not. Not even close.  Once again you claim it's the reader's fault. Every time you make an outlandish statement you back peddle and claim the reader either doesn't understand you, which is mostly because of your verbiage, or they are somehow ignorant. The "a" word I refrained from using before I will now use: "ARROGANT".
"You guys", indeed!

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by: joeisuzu @ Fri Jan 29, 2010 at 12:57:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

& furthermore

Damn you guys are childish.

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by: dmr @ Fri Jan 29, 2010 at 17:12:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

re: furthermore

We're bonding, tap, tap, no erasies, infinity, infinity.

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by: joeisuzu @ Sat Jan 30, 2010 at 00:01:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Sorry

I am sorry that I do not communicate effectively in this medium, but who does? It is not possible to cover all aspects of any conversation that is this deep. You said your self that there is an hypothesis at least. Maybe there is a theory which would mean they were able to prove some part of it. Regardless, they are actually attempting to prove it out.


Markp

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by: markp @ Fri Jan 29, 2010 at 17:55:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The message

You mean the medium where writing is the form of communication? Yeah, no one does that well. And what does prove it out mean? Is that different than prove it in?

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by: Cultmember @ Sat Jan 30, 2010 at 01:32:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]