Questions

Serious questions

Hi clown -- good questions. Anyone who is serious about practicing Nichiren Buddhism has to ask, and has to resolve, these questions, IMO.

I concluded that I have a moral/ethical sensibility that's not dictated by religion. Part of this sensibility is valuing religious plurality. So, no, I don't believe in outlawing religions, regardless of what Nichiren taught. I do believe in outlawing crimes, of course -- such as priests abusing children. Religion is no excuse for and should not be a cover for criminality (including financial fraud, harassment, etc.)

I have no idea what Nichiren would teach if he were alive today. The point is, he's not alive but we are. Part of our practice is figuring out how to practice in a way that is consonant with the times and the circumstances in which we find ourselves. A literal, fundamentalist interpretation of Nichiren Buddhism is unworkable (and damaging, I think) in twenty-first century America.

Are Nichiren practitioners right and everyone else is wrong? No. I think that's a ridiculous view. Every religion has something to teach. Even yoga or martial arts or twelve-step programs offer valuable, practical teachings. It takes a powerful combination of insecurity and intolerance to look around at every teaching other than nmrk or ichinen sanzen and declare it wrong.

Are Nichiren sects that I don't belong to wrong? This is a tricky question because I have not found an official Nichiren-based organization that I feel is right. I think they're all wrong to varying degrees -- too authoritarian or too Japanese or too fundamentalist or too new-age-anything-goes. I have found small groups of "independent" practitioners, and these groups feel "right" to me in the sense that we can chant together and talk about dharma without there being a ton of drama (principled disagreement, yes, but not much drama.)

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by: deardenver @ Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 19:33:38 PM UTC

Answers?

Clown asks:

1) Do all Nichiren Buddhists agree that outside of themselves everyone else is wrong?
2) Do all Nichiren sects believe that all other Nichiren sects are wrong?

Wrong is pretty broad-brush, here.  Are we talking "wrong" as in "we disagree on a single point of doctrine", or "wrong" as in "you are going straight to the Avici Hell"?  Obviously there are some disagreements, or there would be no need to remain as a separate school.  To be a little more specific:

1) I don't personally think this is true, but it can be parsed many ways, as indicated above.  Nichiren was obviously an absolutist, but I don't see where that is required by the Lotus Sutra.

2) This one is a definite no, unless we are discussing individual single points of doctrine, and then we get back to the "why remain a separate school" question.  There are Nichiren schools with the flexibility to accept differing points of view on doctrinal questions, and to work with individuals, groups or schools that have those differing points of view.

My 2c of course; YMMV.

Namaste, Engyo

Namaste, Engyo

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by: Engyo @ Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 22:26:56 PM UTC

More questions

If Nichiren was an absolutist, and if you want to be a "true" Nichiren believer, don't you have to be an absolutist, too? Don't you have to believe in the resurrection to be a Christian?

How far can can we move away from a founder's original vision? If we were to define Nichiren Buddhism as an absolutist type of philosophy and your group is not absolutist, is it still Nichiren Buddhism or something else?

I bring this up because there is always so much talk about not straying from the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's doctrine, upholding the law, and all that.

I suspect that there are a great many, who in their heart of hearts, think that all other forms of religion are heretical and should be done away with. Not suspect. I know there are.

I also think that to understand Nichiren's view on this point, one must consider the type of person he was. Apparently, he had a rather wild personality. Other people were exposed to the same things as he but they did not come away with the same take. In a sense, Nichiren's personality drove him in that direction.  

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by: dmr @ Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 22:57:03 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Absolutism

If one believes that Nichiren is infallible, then absolutism is the only way to go.

I do not accept the premise that Nichiren was infallible. I do not need him to be infallible. In fact, I have reason to believe he was a bit of a nutter, and rather extreme.

There are historical and psychological reasons for his being extreme. If Nichiren had not taken such a strong stand and become one of the mythic characters of Japanese history (as well as a mythic presence in the history of Japanese Buddhism) it is possible that his teachings would have died with him.

I think it's likely that there was a method to his madness. His radical, confrontational strictness served a purpose -- it got him noticed in a big way -- and his life story has endured as well as his teachings.

Today, however, this madness (absolutism) is unnecessary and detrimental to Nichiren's legacy, I believe.

I define "Nichiren Buddhists" as those who chant Namu (or nam) myoho renge kyo as part of a lifelong practice of inquiry, self-reflection and study. I think all Nichiren sects agree that chanting the daimoku is the core teaching and practice prescribed by Nichiren.

Practitioners can and do and will always argue about the particulars. But chanting the daimoku is the baseline definition of a Nichiren Buddhism. This does not require an attitude of absolutism.

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by: auntie @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 00:32:06 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

can't say yes and you can't say no make up your mind 'cause we gotta go

Engyo,
Nichiren was an absolutist but the Lotus Sutra doesn't require it. Is there a difference between being a follower of Nichiren and a follower of the Lotus Sutra? It seems certain that many follow the Lotus Sutra without following Nichiren. Is it an error to not follow Nichiren as well?
Why remain a seperate school? It's said you remain a seperate school because you think the difference really matters. I think not wanting to give up power is probably a bigger factor. I'll tell you how I feel Truth is to me nothing really matters that much.

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by: clown hidden @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:11:22 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Absolutely

I do think Nichiren is right. FOR ME. I chant because that's what works. FOR ME. I am absolutely certain that the correct way to practice Buddhism is chanting daimoku. FOR ME.

I can't speak for anyone else.

"If only I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone say that the Soka skunk has changed its stripe." -- auntie

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by: mroaks @ Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 22:06:47 PM UTC

Enjoy yourself it's later than you think

I agreee that we all search to see things in a way that makes sense to us and if something really does make sense to us it matters little what others think as long as we are happy. And if we are secure in ourselves we don't need that much validation from outside. I wasn't really asking opinions to help me decide anything but rather as a way of putting my finger on the pulse
I've asked these questions in a few different forums. What I have found in general is that Kempon Hokke and Nichiren Shu take it as a point of pride to not get along with anyone else and certainly not each other. SGI is for getting along with other religions, other buddhists and other Nichiren believers in that order, Nichiren Shoshu excepted. That's not exactly what they like to say but that seems to be the truth if you read between the lines a little bit. Nichiren Shu seemed the most ecuminical minded. There are of course many other Nichiren sects but I didn't get answers from any of them I don't think. People in general with no particular affiliation thought stopping all the in fighting and working together was the only way to go.
Personally I think all the fighting is over things not worth fighting about and I can see how it could cuase everything to collapse. Yet I don't think that it will stop because there is so much attachment to it. United Nichiren buddhists could be a powerful force in the world. Divided they will pass out of existence unless some one "wins" and the fighting stops that way. I see that as highly unlikely. Enjoy it while it lasts.

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by: clown hidden @ Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 08:14:49 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

TYPO

What I have found in general is that Kempon Hokke and Nichiren Shu take it as a point of pride to not get along with anyone else and certainly not each other.

OF COURSE SHOULD READ

What I have found in general is that Kempon Hokke and Nichiren Shoshu take it as a point of pride to not get along with anyone else and certainly not each other.

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by: clown hidden @ Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 17:59:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I was wondering...

about that. My perception is that Nichiren Shu tries to get along, welcomes all, and doesn't throw bombs. I feel you are correct in pointing out that Nichiren Shoshu, on the other hand, is more combative and exclusionary.

"If only I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone say that the Soka skunk has changed its stripe." -- auntie

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by: mroaks @ Tue Apr 20, 2010 at 18:25:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]