Is chanting the same as praying?

prayer is focusing outside yourself

I know peopple use the word prayer and I guess like Humpty Dumpty you can choose whatever meaning to a word that you want, but I see prayer as directed to something else. I don't pray to myself. If there is something I can do that I want to do I just do it. I don't have to beg or convince myself.
I see chanting as an affirmation. I am reminding myself that I am one with the process of reality. I'm not saying, "Please, can I be what I should be?" I'm saying, "I am a manifestation of the universe with unlimited potential!"
I guess there are people who pray to their inner potential but it's hard for me to see why.

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by: clown hidden @ Wed Jul 28, 2010 at 23:43:58 PM UTC

Prayer & meditation

My viewpoint is that chanting is a form of meditation.  All of the 3 variations you mention above would to me be classed as meditations.

I agree with Philip that prayer is focused outside ones self.  I also view Buddhist prayer as from, rather than to.  As a Buddhist, my prayers are an offering of merit (or positive energy, or whatever term you prefer) generated from my practice towards the subject of the prayer.  This is in contrast with prayer that is directed to some outside entity or force for some desired response (as is common in the Abrahamic faiths).

Of course, this is just my personal opinion, not any sort of doctrine.  YMMV.

Namaste, Engyo

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by: Engyo @ Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 12:18:50 PM UTC

On Prayer

Great topic. I generally agree with Engyo and Clown. I've always been confused about what prayer means in Nichiren Buddhism, though. The general consensus is that since there's no "supreme being" in Buddhism, there's no entity to whom to address prayer.

Nichiren wrote a whole long gosho called On Prayer. It confuses me because it's at odds with the general-consensus opinion stated above. On Prayer is full of anecdotal mysticism, protective deities helping people, and prayers being answered. Nichiren wrote:

...we know that the prayers offered by a practitioner of the Lotus Sutra will be answered just as an echo answers a sound, as a shadow follows a form, as the reflection of the moon appears in clear water, as a mirror collects dewdrops, as a magnet attracts iron, as amber attracts particles of dust, or as a clear mirror reflects the color of an object....

This implies that prayer (as understood in Nichiren Buddhism) has tangible/observable results or effects in the material/natural world. I can speak only anecdotally, and only for myself, but this has been my experience; I feel that I have had many of my prayers "answered" in some tangible way.

It has been a while since I read On Prayer from start to finish. The quote that's often cherrypicked from it is:

So, if you earnestly pray that blessings be given to you without delay, how can your prayers fail to be answered?

Brooke, this sounds pretty "beseechy" to me, and is clearly in keeping with the teachings of Nichiren.

Also, Buddhism is full of deities and entities who intercede on behalf of humans. We see this in the Lotus Sutra especially, with the great bodhisattva Kannon or Kanzeon or Perceiver of the World's Sounds. This is a being who hears prayers and responds instantly to pleas.

Some Nichiren Buddhists assert that Buddhism is perfectly reasonable and, therefore, there's no mystical hocuspocus in it. On the subject of prayer, however, I'd say it's all mysticism -- "...a doctrine of an immediate spiritual intuition of truths believed to transcend ordinary understanding..."

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by: deardenver @ Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 18:07:55 PM UTC

KWAN YIN

When I was in Taiwan posing as a buddhist monk I hitched a ride on a motorcycle with a young army officer who told me that he didn't believe in God but he believed in Kwan Yin. He had had some disease in one of his eyes and the doctor's treatments weren't helping. He prayed to Jesus to take away his pain and suffering and nothing happened. Finally out of desperation he prayed to Kwan Yin and was cured. He became a buddhist. He was so excited to see a westerner who was a buddhist monk he had to give me a ride and buy me lunch just so he could tell me this story.

I remain of the opinion that the idea is not that Kwan Yin can be my savior but that I can be a manifestation of Kwan Yin.  

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by: clown hidden @ Thu Jul 29, 2010 at 22:55:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Monk?

You were a monk at one time? Or pretending to be a monk? I'll wager you have some interesting stories to tell.

I remain of the opinion that the idea is not that Kwan Yin can be my savior but that I can be a manifestation of Kwan Yin.

Why can't both be true?

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by: auntie @ Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 16:58:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

BOTH CAN BE TRUE

Both CAN be true but I only believe the second. Which is neither here nor there because something isn't true or false because of what I think.
Before I tell some of those stories I should make sure the statute of limitations is up.

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by: clown hidden @ Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 19:03:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Self-centeredness

Brooke, you wrote:

The word "prayer" implies an act of beseeching something  -- an internal potential, an external entity, or both -- and implies qualities of humility, gratitude, faith, and the releasing of one's self-centered will.

This notion of releasing one's self-centered will seems to get lost with regard to Buddhist prayer or meditation, or contemplation, whatever you wish to call it.

When one studies Buddhism, one gradually learns that the self we tend to cling to as "me" is actually a shifting, transitory "thing" that does not arise or exist independent of other people. Rather, "me" is deeply, inextricably intertwined with all other lives.

And yet. A popular and seemingly widespread belief maintains that each individual creates his or her own reality, as if one is an independent entity and the master of one's universe.

Perhaps this is true to some degree. Without an acknowledgment of interdependence, however, this belief readily tilts into a narcissistic style of religious practice.

I have met dozens, perhaps hundreds, of Nichiren Buddhists who believe that prayer is a matter of projecting and amplifying their self-centered will. By chanting more, studying harder, and proclaiming the Lotus Sutra more zealously, they seem to believe that the universe will somehow grant their wishes and material reality will conform to their desires.

I have suggested to some of these practitioners that they surrender their self-centered will and instead trust in the unseen and unknowable myoho, and they look at me as if I'm crazy. "But there's no God in Buddhism," they argue. "I am a Buddha."

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by: auntie @ Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 17:22:48 PM UTC

Myoho

Gulp. Auntie, are you talking about me?! :)

When you say myoho I'm going to guess you mean it the way Nichiren meant it, as he wrote in On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime:

What then does myo signify? It is simply the mysterious nature of our life from moment to moment, which the mind cannot comprehend or words express.

When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither color nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say that it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur. The mind cannot be considered either to exist or not to exist.

Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the ultimate reality.

Myo is the name given to the mystic nature of life, and ho, to its manifestations.

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by: buddhajones @ Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 17:35:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Too funny!

I just read this thread, then clicked on one of the entries in the twitter feed to the right.

Check this out: https://twitter.com/PrivatePat...

auntie, no one can accuse of misrepresenting how people abuse Nichiren Buddhism.

"If only I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone say that the Soka skunk has changed its stripe." -- auntie

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by: mroaks @ Fri Jul 30, 2010 at 19:40:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I couldn't understand it

Was the person saying that they were so happy chanting daimoku that they didn't want to do anything else?

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by: clown hidden @ Sat Jul 31, 2010 at 22:28:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Chant and Prayer

Neither term, "chant" nor "prayer", appears in the dictionary at sgilibrary.org.

Dictionary.com indicates:
chant
-noun
1. a short, simple melody, esp. one characterized by single notes to which an indefinite number of syllables are intoned, used in singing psalms, canticles, etc., in church services.
2. a psalm, canticle, or the like, chanted or for chanting.
3. the singing or intoning of all or portions of a liturgical service.
4. any monotonous song.
5. a song; singing: the chant of a bird.
6. a monotonous intonation of the voice in speaking.
7. a phrase, slogan, or the like, repeated rhythmically and insistently, as by a crowd.

-verb (used with object)
8. to sing to a chant, or in the manner of a chant, esp. in a church service.
9. to sing.
10. to celebrate in song.
11. to repeat (a phrase, slogan, etc.) rhythmically and insistently.

-verb (used without object)
12. to sing.
13. to utter a chant.

pray
-verb (used with object)
1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to god or to an object of worship.
7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
-verb (used without object)
8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

prayer

-noun
1. a devout petition to god or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.
5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.
6. that which is prayed for.
7. a petition; entreaty.
8. the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action desired.
9. a negligible hope or chance: Do you think he has a prayer of getting that job?

Before researching this, I was confident there was a clear distinction between the two, however I'm not so sure.

Gongyo consists of chanting and silent prayers. Daimoku may be chanted (it may also be read or thought, but not necessarily uttered).

Why is this distinction of "silent prayers" made? What prayer is not silent?

Do you feel as if you are praying when chanting the prose and verse of gongyo?

Why is there a distinction between the various possible chants and how they should be performed and what should be in our minds at the time of the chant?

Upon examination of the translations of the chants, I find them to be as affirmations [of the Buddha's word]. The daimoku is affirmative- "I am vocally dedicated to the mystical law of cause and effect".

So, I think that prayer is essentially beseeching. I pray for my day to go well, the realization of my dreams and that world peace and other events or circumstances over which my influence is uncertain be realized. I think prayer tends to be internalized. I don't think prayer can ever exist outside the realm of thought.

You may pray while chanting, but I don't think many people chant their prayers.

Over the course of my practice (about 9 years now), I have come to grasp chanting as a cleansing or purifying activity. While Nichiren employs a metaphor of a mirror, I relate better to brushing my teeth.

You brush your teeth to stimulate your gums and to remove impurities from them, to lengthen their life (usefulness), to fight disease and for your own happiness (cavities and gum disease are not conducive to pleasant feelings and a sense of happiness, although you can be happy with them!). You are encouraged to brush your teeth at least twice daily, for two minutes per brushing.

I consider chanting to be the toothbrush (exercise) of the spirit. It is recommended to chant twice a day.

But there is no empirical minimum time to spend chanting to maximize benefits. Most people will give you a different figure if you ask them how much time should you spend chanting (until your heart's content; whatever that means). This is the main reason I developed this tooth brushing analogy.

I don't necessarily like to chant and I would sure rather not have to brush my teeth (esp. floss, ugh!), but I know they're good for me.

So, to grasp how long I SHOULD chant, I employ this analogy. I don't think you need to chant very long (like 2 minutes is probably fine; just one strong daimoku is probably fine).

Now that I'm working with this analogy, the last time I went to my dentist, I asked "Is it possible to brush your teeth too much?"

"No." She replied.

"You wouldn't eventually damage your enamel?" I inquired.

"No, but you would eventually clean the teeth so well that your continued brushing would no longer be serving to clean the teeth."

I feel the same way about chanting. Our spirits are not so muddied in mire that they must be completely cleansed each time we chant. Sure, it might take a lot of chanting to turn around your situation, but once you're perceiving the true nature of reality, chanting won't enable to see the truer nature of reality.

Thus, I consider chanting to have more parallels with brushing teeth than with prayer.

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by: wikiBuddha @ Sun Aug 01, 2010 at 22:15:52 PM UTC

Reciting Sutra, Chanting Mantra, Prayer

Hi, wikiBuddha -

Why is this distinction of "silent prayers" made? What prayer is not silent?

Silent prayers are used in Nichiren Shoshu services, and also the ones SGI now uses that derived from them.  Other Nichiren Buddhists often speak prayers aloud.  This includes both formalized prayers (prewritten) and personal prayers if the person wishes to do so, during their personal daily practice.

Do you feel as if you are praying when chanting the prose and verse of gongyo?

No, I feel as if I am reciting the Sutra; this is one of the five practices of the Dharma Teacher according to Chapter 10 of the Lotus Sutra. In doing so I am (partially) fulfilling the charge laid on the Bodhisattvas from Underground to propogate the Sutra in this saha world after the Buddha's passing (in Chapter 21).

The daimoku is affirmative- "I am vocally dedicated to the mystical law of cause and effect".

Personally, I like the most direct translation: "I venerate (pay homage to) the Wonderful Dharma of the Lotus Flower Sutra", because that is exactly what my intent is when chanting the Odaimoku.  I don't see it as an affirmation, at least not in the New Agey sense of the word.  When chanting the Odaimoku, I am performing meditation, focused on the Sutra's promise of eventual attainment of enlightenment for all who practice its teachings.

I have come to a much different understanding of what the different parts of daily practice are for, and how they work together, than I used to hold as an NSA and then SGI member.  This is my personal understanding, of course; YMMV.

Namaste, Engyo

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by: Engyo @ Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 22:22:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]